Dennis said:
DannyBoy, you are so wrong that they only want to kill us because of our foreing policy. If that is the case why are they killing other Muslims? Because of their foreing policies? No because they are not like them, they do not believe what they believe. They hate us because we are not ruled under Sharia law and under their twisted version of Islam. I have no doubt that you feel more kinship to a "progressive" person in China--I guess that is someone who is less communist?--than the Vice President of the United States. Take a look at the countries you admir so and see how many have anything that reaches all of our Bill of Rights--all of them. Who provide the opportunity for free education from kindergarden all the way through a doctorate based on merit alone. I have to say, your rhetoric makes me laugh, right out of the MoveOn.org/George Soros/Michael Moore script. Finally, easy to put up the comments behind wall of anonimity--you are allowed to speak freely and put forth your name without recriminations in this country, I don't think your Chinese progressive has that ability. Happy President's Day, if you celebrate the day commemorating our President's and their contributions to our country and bettering the world. God Bless America--and you.
John B. said:
dannyboy: One last comment if I may; You've been quick to misquote Boswell in your comment that "patriotism remains the last refuge of scoundrels". What Boswell actually wrote was this: "Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start: 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.' But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak for self-interest." I will leave it to others to judge which of us seems the more focused upon self-interest.
John B. said:
dannyboy: As is typical of those who make asumptions about the viewpoints of others, you misrepresent and mischaracterize almost all of my previous comments and then proceed to attempt to argue from those false premises. I never said the military gives you your freedom. What I *said* was that your freedoms are made possible (i.e. given) by a loving God. Once made possible, though, some freedoms still must be earned. That's where the sacrifice of others comes in. Neither did I say that such sacrifices are made exclusively by the military, that was a false assumption *you* chose to make. We actually agree on several key points but you seem so focused on your personal anger toward our great nation that you cannot even see some of the common ground we clearly share. Be of good cheer, dannyboy, this is, indeed, a great nation and we are all truly blessed to be living here.
dannyboy said:
John B:
I love it when people tell me the military gives me my freedom.
1. According to one of the United States' founding documents, we are given our inalienable rights by our creator, not by the Marines. Stop trying to guilt me into becoming a nationalist; God gave me free speech, not Patton.
2. Tell me which wars the US has fought to protect free speech. I don't think there have been any, but for the sake of argument I'll give you WWII, the Civil War and the Revolution. That's what, about 3% of America's military adventures? Tell me how invading Iraq protects my freedom, or how sending Saudi Arabia f-16s is making sure I can practice religion and peaceably assemble. Tell me how helping the Turks massacre Kurds for 25 years is essential to our national security. Explain the proud feeling you got when we sent machine guns to Suharto or helicopters to Saddam Hussein.
I get it. We have free speech. I'm very glad. Now let's use it - and our free thought, too - for something more productive and morally inspiring than patting ourselves on the back and looking the other way.
Our nation rules the world by hook and crook. It's time to live up to our supposed greatness and stop trying to rest on our very old laurels. No one is buying it anymore.
Patriotism remains the last refuge of scoundrels - and just about everyone else it seems. There's an old lawyer joke: If you cant argue the facts, argue the law. If you cant argue the law, bang your fist on the table.
I suppose if that doesnt work, you can always wave the flag.
dannyboy said:
Dennis, you are twisting my words. I said America is not freest or most generous, and gave evidence for that. You have offered none for your suerplatives; no one ever does offer evidence - that's what makes them myths. Again, I say - show me how we are freer, or more generous, or "greater" than all other nations, and also, show me how it is one iota useful to humanity to boast about which nation is "greatest".
I do not place others' interests above "our" security; I place our interests and theirs on equal footing; in fact, I reject the notion of "our"; my identity is as tied to class, value system, and ancestral lines as it is nation, perhaps more so, and I certainly feel more kinship to a progressive in China than to Dick Cheney, who can go to you know where as far as I'm concerned.
Finally, this idea that people want to kill us just because we're American. Wrong: we are in a war with Islamists because of our foreign policies. We have been intervening and interfering with oil producing states for half a century or more; our support for Israel has us in hot water. I don't justify attacks against the US; I'm opposed to violence, so unlike you all, I have a moral ground to stand on when I criticize terror, because I don't excuse it when it is supplied by the USA. in the form of cluster bombs, CIA hitsquads, and puppet juntas. Nationalism and morality are incompatible; you've made your choice.
Dennis said:
"Myth making" Danny Boy? Seriously? Did I say America does not have flaws? No, but you can espouse the now standard far-left view that because America has flaws it is not the greatest, freest, most generous or any other superlative because it does have flaws. Frankly I am tired of the moral relativism too many try to use to denegrate our country. I will not get over my nationalism, my pride in being American--and because I have those does not make me a jingoist, but they do make me feel blessed to be an American. I am sorry if you do not feel the same. Sure we are all "just people" but there is a large group of "just people" who want to kill us--you and me--because we are "just American". I will refrain from reciprocating your "just get over it" advice. We need your views to remind us that there are those in America who put others interests above our own--and therefore jeopardize our safety and security. Thanks for your comments, I will pass on your advice. God Bless America and the freedom we each have to espouse our opinions.
John B. said:
danny boy: You seem to have more than a few axes to grind. That's ok, though, in this nation, at leat, you have the freedom to publicly do so in a peaceful manner whereas in many other countries you do not. You're also operating under several misconceptions as to America's role, position and importaance in and to the larger world. That's ok too. In this nation you have the right to be anything you want to be, including bitter, angry and pertulent.
Enjoy your freedoms danny boy, they are made possible by a loving God and paid for by the sacrifice of many others who understood and appreciate what you clearly do not...that freedom is and never will be free.
danny boy said:
America is the freest?
Explain to me how we are freer than Japan, or England, or the Netherlands.
America is the most generous? Plain wrong - as a percentage of our GDP, we give less in charity and foreign aid than any industrialized nation.
America is "the greatest". What does that even mean?
"No other nation has the continuity of peaceful transition of leadership and constitutional governance as the United States of America."
Just wrong. Several countries have accomplished this for longer than we have.
This whole idea of a country being the "greatest" is just another illusion, another false identity people need to cling to. Vonnegut called it a "granfalloon", look it up.
Get over your nationalism and try to remember the reality - we're all just people, America has major flaws, and jingoism never did anyone any good. Stop with the mythmaking - it's tired.
Paul said:
For all of our differences, Dennis, I'm glad that we can agree on this.
John B. said:
Dennis: So very well said. Some of us become so passionate about our respective political leanings that we overlook the bigger picture: Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, at the end of the day we will all still be Americans and we will all still live in the greatest, most prosperous, most free and most generous nation on the face of the earth. To those who fear the sky will somehow fall should their political candidate or party not assume leadership of the Executive Branch this time around I would offer this: This great nation has survived 43 Presidents in it's relatively young life. For well or ill or country will likewise be certain to survive the 44th.
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